View source for The punishment of Adam

==PQRC 8 Reconciliation challenge  ==

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|'''P''', '''Q''' or '''RC'''? || Reconciliation Challenge
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|Description:|| It has been said that after sin had entered the world and God’s judgements had been pronounced, the man Adam was altered so that he would return to the dust (a punishment pronounced on the man Adam only). Yet animals are mortal too &mdash; it is a scientific fact that all animate creatures die. Can these be reconciled? 
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|Comment by proposer:||This is based on the review of a video by {{RonC}} that was forwarded to me by Daphne. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQMY6TwXVM&list=PLapIoMHXBxJ9icjxg885kQnvMro-toPZW
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* understanding(s) of Scripture: '''*****PLEASE SEE TALK PAGE! &mdash; [[User:Bruce|BP]] *****'''
<!-- State clearly the (mis)understanding(s) of Scripture which give rise to the Reconciliation Challenge.  -->

:[[Paul]] In [[Genesis 3:17-19|Genesis 3:19]] Death was pronounced upon the man Adam (and also upon the woman as she had first eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil – consequences declared in [[Genesis 2:16-17|Genesis 2:17]]). No such declaration was made about the animals. Yet all animals die. This was a pre-existing characteristic of their nature and does not appear to be related to them eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

:This is reinforced in:

::KJV [[Ecclesiastes 3:18-20]]  18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.  19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.  20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

:The punishment of dying placed upon Adam for eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:7, 3:17) occurred at a particular time and in a particular place. Since this punishment is not declared against the animals and all animals die (Ecclesiastes 3:19-20), it would appear to be related to location rather than to time. Removal of Adam’s access to the tree of life was the event that resulting in the dying process taking effect. It does not appear to be a change in his physical nature (though his intellect and morality were changed by the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil). This is reinforced by the concerns expressed by God in:
::KJV Genesis 3:22-24 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.  24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

:Humans and animals all die. This is as a consequence of a loss of connection and proximity to God. Without God all will die. Only God offers an alternative of life instead of death.

:[[User:Paul|Paul]] ([[User talk:Paul|talk]]) 02:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

[[User:Colin|Colin]] ([[User talk:Colin|talk]]) 
:“Punishment” appears 23 times in the Bible and often as a penalty for iniquity or sin. It is not mentioned at all in relation to the consequence of Adam’s transgression, just that “dying he would die” and “return to the dust from whence he was taken.” (Gen 2/17; 3/19).  Often it relates to a consequence of some perversity, (moral evil), with a root idea of being crooked, doing wickedly of wrong. 

:Bro Carter p73. He proves that death is an inherited evil by recalling that fact that “death reigned from Adam to Moses over men that had not sinned, as Adam had, under the penal code. The Edenic law carried a death penalty for disobedience, and some of the Mosaic laws involved death for disobedience; but we know of no such penal enactments throughout the patriarchal age. Yet death reigned – reigned because death passed through to all men. All men are mortal and all have sinned.” 

:In an additional article he states on page 80, “It was Adam who sinned; it was Adam who was condemned; it was the dust formed organization that was sentenced to return to the ground. It was the physical man that sustained such '''changes''' [''my emphasis''] as brought shame and fear and a defiled conscience, a defilement which then became, in Dr Thomas’ word. “corporeal”.

:Of animals we find in Eccelsiastes “For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.” We are not entitled to claim this is a result of disobedience to God’s law. We are only told death followed Adam’s disobedience, that living creatures and birds were created on the 5th day, and land creatures (livestock and creeping things according to their kinds) on the 6th day. The first recorded death must have been the animal sacrificed to give Adam and Eve a covering following their sin. Of edible foods, the apostle Paul says, they were “created by God to be received with thanksgiving by those who know and believe the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing to be rejected if it received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” (1 Tim 4/3-4). We cannot assume the animals were subject to the law God gave to Adam for obedience. Only man was made in the image and likeness of God, and were to have dominion over God’s animal life. 
<div align="right">&mdash; [[User:Colin|Colin]] ([[User talk:Colin|talk]]) 22:52, 2 December 2018 (UTC)</div>

:[[Paul]] - Please see similar discussion on http://bibsci.sutherlandchristadelphians.org/index.php?title=The_Origin_of_Mortality#PQRC_7:_Reconciliation_challenge  In summary: "To be precise, death appearing [entering, coming (about)] as a consequence of sin is what is said in Romans 5 and not “by one man death entered into the world” and that "death" did not exist before Adam, such ignores “sin” and its impact on humanity and is not a valid Biblical conclusion as it is based upon an unscriptural premise." [[User:Paul|Paul]] ([[User talk:Paul|talk]]) 23:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


* discoveries of Science:

:[[Paul]] All animate creatures die.
::[[User:Paul|Paul]] ([[User talk:Paul|talk]]) 02:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

<!-- State briefly and clearly the discoveries of Science which give rise to the Reconciliation Challenge.  -->


* summary of the Reconciliation Challenge:

:[[Paul]] If the description of the creation as “very good” (Genesis 1:31) is taken to mean that all animals were dying creatures then science and Scripture can be reconciled.

:[[User:Paul|Paul]] ([[User talk:Paul|talk]]) 02:00, 26 September 2018 (UTC)



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