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Feel free to write anything you want to say to me, and please sign off with the tildes ~~~ or ~~~~ and/or your name. — Bruce

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My particular interests in this wiki

Bible/Science Themes

Theistic Heliocentrism

I'm fascinated by the story itself, and also by the comparison with the similar controversy of our own times. One of the interesting comparisons is the way the two stories are handled by the side that wields the power of yesterday:

  • it wasn't what x said, it was the way he said it - where x might be Giordano Bruno or a brother in Taiwan
  • we didn't really subject y to mental or physical duress - where y might be Galileo or a sister in Seattle
  • "It's just the plain teaching of Scripture," says z - where z might be Cardinal Bellarmine or a committee in Australia

The contrasts are interesting too, but they can wait for another day. Meanwhile, let Pope John Paul II speak for those who were successful, for a time, in enforcing Biblical truth as they understood it, in this extract from an address he gave in 1992 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences: "Galileo, a sincere believer, showed himself to be more perceptive in [scriptural interpretation] than the theologians who opposed him." (Larger extract at User:Bruce/Pope John Paul II on Galileo and the Bible.)

The Weird Stuff

Studying the Creation Records of Scripture has been eye-opening.

Firstly, with a life-long interest in language, I've been fascinated by the way people reinforce their unwitting assumptions by using the loaded phrases creation record and Genesis record, sometimes abbreviated to the record. Nobody seems to have needed this vocabulary very much until the Flood Geologists started to be influential, with their concept of the record of the Flood, written in stone — as found in Morris and Whitcomb, The Genesis Flood: The Biblical Record and its Scientific Implications, 1961.

Much more importantly, though, has been putting together the "creation records" linked in this wiki from Genesis ch. 1. Serpents, sea monsters, many headed dragons, even echoes in language of Tiamat getting split in two. I have written about this from my page The Weird Stuff.

Christadelphian Contributions to Scholarship

A Christadelphian guide through this "weird stuff" has been the late brother Wilfred G. Lambert, who not only illuminated our understanding of the Hebrew Bible and its linguistic and cultural background, but the whole world's. My debt to him can be seen in my page Reading Appropriations as well as at The Weird Stuff. He is also said to have played the organ for the last ever meeting of the Birmingham Central Ecclesia, which I find especially poignant.

More recently, brother Tom Gaston has defended the Christadelphian view that the New Testament describes a second creation in Christ, echoing the language of Genesis. Of course this does not justifying YEC or other absurdities, however much their proponents may also echo the language of Genesis. See at Colossians 1:12-18.

Rohde et al., Nature, 2004

And see Adam and Eve our ghostly ancestors? — a revue of S. Joshua Swamidass’s book about the implications of Rohde et al.’s paper.

The Surprise

The weakness of the Biblical arguments against evolution really is surprising, as has been the reluctance of the anti-evo campaigners to participate in fair debate or even join in discussion in this wiki. I suppose Peter didn't say we should be ready to give an answer for disbelief!



Here’s one we need to look at. Implications for “Design” too.

Castle, S.D., Grierson, C.S. & Gorochowski, T.E. Towards an engineering theory of evolution. Nat Commun 12, 3326 (2021).


nothing to see here? — but everything is temporary!

A Dilemma

What a dilemma! I can't make up my mind if it's a "False Dichotomy" or a "False Dilemma". I do like the Fallacy Files web site by Dr Gary N. Curtis, a logician, but he lists more synonyms — or near-synonyms. This leads to another dilemma: are they alternatives, or choices? My old teachers insisted that you can only ever have two alternatives, because alter is the Latin word for other — when we alternate we flip-flop, we don't flip-flop-flap etc, etc., &c. Similarly the Greek derivation of di- in "dichotomy" and "dilemma" is "di" meaning two. It preserves this meaning, strongly, in "dichotomy", and especially "dichotomous key", but not so much in everyday "dilemmas" such as which brand of tinned tomatoes to choose.

Curtis plumps for "The Black-or-White Fallacy" which sums it up, and he lists "aliases":

  • Bifurcation
  • Black-and-White Fallacy
  • Either/Or Fallacy
  • False Dichotomy
  • False Dilemma

My preference

  • Two types of Black-or-White Fallacy:
    • thinking: False Dichotomy for inappropriate black-or-white thinking where it's a matter of perception or analysis, choosing between (two) alternative views
    • choosing: False Dilemma for inappropriate black-or-white choosing where it's a matter of making a decision, choosing between multiple possible processes


Words of wisdom from Dr Curtis:

Beware of the phrase "the alternative": there is seldom a single alternative available. If you hear that "the" alternative to some view or action is something unpleasant or obviously false, always ask: "Are there other alternatives? What are they?" The phrase "the alternative" is often a tip-off that a black-or-white fallacy is coming up.

and beyond this wiki . . .

The Great Debate

The Little Debate

The Surprise Writ Large

The collapse of the resistance to evolution (micro-evolution, of course :-) ) on the part of Ken Ham, Answers in Genesis, etc — and now (2021), of Christadelphians!! who argue against biological evolution!

More personal

Coping with iOS

Templates that make editing possible with devices that are too clever by half. {{subst:Comment}} makes <!-- o -->
{{subst:LComment}} makes <!-- (Take care not to leave it open.)
{{subst:RComment}} makes -->

{{subst:3dots}} makes   . . . 

also useful

  • Highlight thus: <mark> o </mark>
  • Links in this wiki to any page USE WITH CARE


To Do

James Downard, 2016, "Evolution Slam Dunk Why the Reptile Mammal Transition Proves Macroevolution and How Antievolutionists Ignore It" ISBN 978-1-365-57280-7 exposes personal sockpuppeteering - some pages on servetus Documents/Origins/BibSci/Woodmorappe. James Downard 4033 N. Belt St. Spokane, WA 99205

  • See Extension:PageNotice and white on white text here. {{#setmainimage:Sutherland logo-icon.png}} color:transparent works too. transparent here <- thus.
  • A blogroll of other Chr. sites

what links here lists

Cosmetic improvement:

Suppress links "(← links | edit)" can be suppressed by placing the following in Common.css :-

.mw-whatlinkshere-tools{ display:none;


New Index Categories and Subcategories

Navigating this Site

the standard tools

Firstly, use the standard tools on the left, under the Sutherland Christadelphians logo:
obsolete - get new screenshots!


  • Main page aka "Home page"
  • Recent changes anywhere in the wiki
  • Random page
  • Help


  • finds pages by their exact name if you enter it
  • otherwise searches content of all pages


  • What links here relates to the page that you are viewing — so if you click it now, you will see a list of pages that link to this page, i.e. "Navigating this site"
  • Upload file — not relevant to navigation
  • Special pages links to an index of many useful pages
  • Page information gives information about the page that you are viewing at the time
  • (sometimes not visible) Related changes gives recent changes in pages linked to the page you are viewing
  • (sometimes not visible) Printable version gives a printable version of the page you are viewing
  • (sometimes not visible) Permanent link gives an internet link to the page you are viewing

Our special links

Also on the left on each page — our own modified index links

Our Task

  • What we resolved links to our resolutions of 4th March 2018 and 21st April 2019, which resulted in the creation of this wiki
  • Many perspectives gives an overview of positions and beliefs with respect to Scripture and Science
  • Christadelphians cited lists all Christadelphians cited in this wiki — please help keep it up to date!
  • Our process — the structured processes by which we intended to treat the task methodically as "PQRC" (Problems, Questions, and Reconciliation Challenges): now of historical interest only
  • Current topics — links to unfinished PQRC tasks
  • Topics considered — completed PQRC tasks

Special Areas

  • Bible Index lists all citations from the Bible in this wiki — please help keep it up to date!
  • QMS: Questioning Mainstream Science — an area for discussion based on assumptions that are contrary to mainstream 21st Century science
  • MCo: "Many Counsellors" pages — pages from an old wiki that discussed related topics
  • BASF links — lists references in this wiki to the BASF, and Bible verses listed in support of BASF clauses

Help needed

Our task

Bible Index

DR:Daily Readings

Christadelphian writers

Reconciling the Bible and Evolution

The case against Evolution (help needed)

Sub topics?

Young Earth Creationism

  • THIS: (hidden)

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video & audio fiasco