Are creation and design different?

are creation and design different? (deferred practice question)

Is there a difference between creation and design? If so, does the Bible call God a designer? Bruce (talk) Discussion . . .

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To create implies design; created with a purpose (function, objective etc). For humanity God had himself as the template (Gen 1:27).

Gen. 1:21 NKJ 21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

Gen. 1:27-28 NKJ 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Created in God’s image (and likeness Gen. 5v1) with a built-in design for being “fruitful, filling, subduing, having dominion”. Paul (talk) 22:28, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

The word “created” used here is:

01254 בּרא bara' {baw-raw'}

Meaning: 1) to create, shape, form 1a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject) 1a1) of heaven and earth 1a2) of individual man 1a3) of new conditions and circumstances 1a4) of transformations 1b) (Niphal) to be created 1b1) of heaven and earth 1b2) of birth 1b3) of something new 1b4) of miracles 1c) (Piel) 1c1) to cut down 1c2) to cut out 2) to be fat 2a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Origin: a primitive root; TWOT - 278; v

Usage: AV - create 42, creator 3, choose 2, make 2, cut down 2, dispatch 1, done 1, make fat 1; 54

Isa. 43:7 NKJ 7 Everyone who is called by My name, Whom I have created for My glory; I have formed him, yes, I have made him."

The word "formed" here is:

03335 יָצַר yatsar {yaw-tsar'}

Meaning: 1) to form, fashion, frame 1a) (Qal) to form, fashion 1a1) of human activity 1a2) of divine activity 1a2a) of creation 1a2a1) of original creation 1a2a2) of individuals at conception 1a2a3) of Israel as a people 1a2b) to frame, pre-ordain, plan (fig. of divine) purpose of a situation) 1b) (Niphal) to be formed, be created 1c) (Pual) to be predetermined, be pre-ordained 1d) (Hophal) to be formed

Origin: probably identical with 03334 (through the squeezing into shape), ([compare 03331]); TWOT - 898; v

Usage: AV - form 26, potter 17, fashion 5, maker 4, frame 3, make 3, former 2, earthen 1, purposed 1; 62

Paul (talk) 07:15, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

What's the justification for saying "create implies design"? They're two different things. Designing involves sketches, plans, prototypes - symbols to get from concept to design - and a design might never be realised - brought to fruition, put into effect, made real. Creating, on the other hand, can happen without any plan or intent, and things can be created without any plan behind them. For example:

• The cyclone and blackout created great confusion.

(To me this is causal and would not create great confusion if there was no audience. More precise words could be "caused" or "resulted in" as the cylcone and blackout did not have any design to generate "great confusion".) Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

• His badly sunburned face against the beautiful sunset created an ironical effect.

(To me this is symbolic language as it describes what the viewer visualised, not what was actually there.) Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

• The spilled fuel seeped into the cargo and created a dangerous mix.

(Again to me this is causal. More appropriate words may be "caused" or "resulted in" as the spilled fuel did not have any deliberate intention to generate "a dangerous mix".) Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

The verse you've quoted become nonsense if we substitute design for create:

Gen. 1:21 So God DESIGNED great sea creatures . . .

Gen. 1:27-28 NKJ So God DESIGNED man in His own image; in the image of God He DESIGNED him; male and female He DESIGNED them. 28 Then God blessed them ...

This isn't nonsense to me (see below). Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Isn't this putting the cart before the horse? If it wasn't for Arguments from Design for the existence of God, (sorry, this page is only a stub so far) I don't think people would ever say "create" and "design" mean the same thing.

Bruce (talk) 13:10, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Paul — Apologies in that I am not aware of the Arguments from Design so I may not have that "baggage". I defer to your broader knowledge. Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Paul — My view that create implies design is as follows (a quote from wikipedia):

"Toru Iwatani (岩谷 徹 Iwatani Tōru, born January 25, 1955) is a Japanese video game designer, best known as the creator of the arcade games Pac-Man (1980) and Pole Position (1982)."

Toru is a designer and he is also a creator. What he designed (in all its aspects) he also created as well. I am not saying that Toru didn't create based on another's design nor that he didn't design for another to create. Both functions can occur independently or concurrently (it depends on the abilities of the one designing and creating). This is not to imply that God did the build of humanity (except in the ultimate sense; "responsibility" for Adam and Eve) but there is sufficient hints that it was perhaps the angels that had been given specific authority, flexibility, power and ability to do the build. Agreed that design and create are independent tasks but that does not preclude that a designer cannot also create what they have designed. And a creator can base their creation on what is in their head) in a design sense. The record of Genesis can be taken in so many ways. It would be foolish to be dogmatic that we know, with complete and factual clarity what happened in the creation of Adam and Eve other than "God created". The basis of that creative process to me wasn't random or accidental. Using different words, the basis of that creative process to me did not result in something random or accidental. For all we know there may have been many attempts at the creation prior to Adam and Eve; there is nothing in the Bible that I am aware of that says there wasn't. But such conjecture and imagination cannot be considered as anything but conjecture and imagination (perhaps it may be science in discovery). I am starting to ramble now I'm sorry. What I am trying to say is that my understanding of God is of an unfathomable power that is able to create and design as well as utilising others in performing creation and design aspects. These "other" actors God has empowered to do so and this could imply that these "others" may well have practiced as long as they needed to achieve the "good" result that God was looking for. Paul (talk) 01:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)