Meaning of "very good"
| Question PQRC 4 — Meaning of "very good" | ||||||||||
| In Genesis 1:31 all of God’s creation was described as “very good”. This has been taken to mean that humans (as part of God’s creation) were neither immortal nor (yet) dying. Is this a justifiable interpretation? | ||||||||||
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PQRC 4: Question of Biblical Interpretation
| P, Q or RC? | Question |
| Description: | In Genesis 1:31 all of God’s creation was described as “very good”. This has been taken to mean that humans (as part of God’s creation) were neither immortal nor (yet) dying. Is this a justifiable interpretation? |
| Comment by proposer: | This is based on the review of a video by Ron Cowie that was forwarded to me by Daphne. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYQMY6TwXVM&list=PLapIoMHXBxJ9icjxg885kQnvMro-toPZW |
- understanding(s) of Scripture:
- Genesis 1:31, describing all of God’s creation as “very good”, has been taken to mean that humans (as part of God’s creation) were neither immortal nor (yet) dying. (For alternative understandings of the verse in context, see links from Discussion of the Creation record.)
- the Question:
- Is this a justifiable interpretation?
Answers already proposed
- by Christadelphians
- "But if the story is a sequence of visions, we can immediately see what Moses saw: on six successive days we see the fiat of God fashion a dark and formless swamp into an earth which is bright, firm, and teeming with the lives of fishes, fowl, animals and man. And on the seventh we see a complete creation which God has pronounced “very good” still, serene and at rest, with a satisfied Creator looking down in blessing upon the earth whose habitation He has purposed and accomplished. . . .
- "The work of the One day, the Second day, the Third, the Fourth and the Fifth stands complete before our eyes, but that of the sixth is not yet accomplished. The beasts and the man have been created, but the man is not “very good”, and the whole creation labours under a curse. . . ." — Lovelock, R and Alfred Norris jr., "Prologue to Revelation", The Christadelphian, Vol 77 p 108, 1940
- Editorial reply by John Carter: "It is implied that the “very good” description in relation to man is prophetic of something yet to be, rather than a statement of what was. Man, indeed, is not now “very good”; and it is admitted that the statements made at his Creation are prophetic. (See the quotations of Gen. 1:26 in Ps. 8 and Heb. 2.) But as part of the creation of God man was very good: “And God saw every thing that he had made, and behold it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day” (Gen. 1:31). Then man became subject to vanity and lost his “very good” state by sin."
- In fact, “very good” was God’s judgment of the creation as a whole, viewed as an ordered system. In this Adam was included, but to apply the term specifically to Adam in a particular state is not scripturally justified.— Bro L G Sargent, "The Nature of Resurrection", The Christadelphian, Vol 102 p 27, 1965
- In fact, “very good” was God’s judgment of the creation as a whole, viewed as an ordered system. In this Adam was included, but to apply the term specifically to Adam in a particular state is not scripturally justified.
- In an article entitled “Adam in Innocence” published in The Christadelphian in 1941, Bro L G Sargent outlines Dr John Thomas's view (and his own) that Adam was mortal when he was created, "capable of death, but not subject to death". The full article can be found here.
- "BASF Clause 4 states that Adam was created ‘“very good” in kind and condition’. This phrase is used to mean that Adam was not created with a nature flawed by the imperfections that we experience (Romans 7:23; 8:2)." [Note that these verses mention human imperfections but do not mention the creation of Adam. — BP.]
- * Adam was part of the "very good" creation
- * This did not include the curses (biological decay, aging, parasites, diseases, death or carnivorous activity (can you imagine Adam and Eve watching animals being eaten alive)
- * Adam was capable of dying .. but was not yet changed to be mortal
- from a transcript of the same talk:
TE says this: “Adam was mortal, was a mortal being, deemed unworthy of immortality, exiled from Eden and left to suffer the consequences of his already mortal body.” So, all that happened was Adam was prevented from eating the Tree of Life and therefore being, already being mortal, he just then suffered the consequences of that. The BASF says “Adam was sentenced . . a sentence which defiled and became . .” (and those are your important words, “that defiled” – it changed him from very good to something else) “it defiled and became a physical law of his being.” If it became it was not there before, it was something that was added. The Cooper Carter addendum makes it absolutely plain mortality came by sin. So, you know, it's very clear in our statements that the TE[a] have a problem with that. They believe he was already mortal, he was not changed.
The Bible says Adam was part of the very good creation, this did not include the curses. You know the biological decay that we have, the built-in time clock, you know. Those of you are over twenty-five[b], you've gone over the hill. Until you're twenty-five you are gradually improving, your cell structure is getting better. You get to twenty-five and things start to fall off. You know, I've got steel knees, steel hips, false teeth, no hair — but from twenty-five you're on the decline, because your biological clock is starting to wind down.
You think of the things that came into the world which you can hardly imagine were there! Biological decay, the aging process, parasites, disease, death, carnivorous activity — imagine that, Adam and Eve sitting in the garden of Eden while a lion's eating a zebra alive! You know the big cats, when they kill animals, they mostly eat them while they're still living, just eat their insides out bit by bit — you imagine watching that in the Garden of Eden? Hardly “very good” is it!
So, you know, there was a lot of things that had to be changed because of sin. Adam was capable of dying, but he was not yet changed to be immortal. So he was a being that could be made mortal he was not an immortal being but he was a being that was in a suspended “very good” condition that then was to be changed to become mortal.
[reads from a slide headed "TE Opposing the BASF":]Man's nature now is carnal, prone to sin, whenever not exposed to God's Word. There is no scriptural support for this being a new condition after the Fall. And it[c] makes this point about being, you know, we have to have this device because of our beliefs of “very good”. [the slide continues "A change in nature is a necessary device if "very good" is misunderstood to mean Adam was different to us."] So again you can just see they[a] oppose this view that there was a change in Adam.
- [footnotes by BP]
- [a] i.e. people who accept so-called Theistic Evolution
- [b] These talks were given over the course of a youth weekend.
- [c] i.e. "the TE", people who accept so-called Theistic Evolution
- Bro David P. Levin:
Adam and Eve did not have some sort of semi-mortal "very good" status.
- Bro David P. Levin:
- by others
- John Walton in “The Lost World of Genesis One” goes through all OT uses of the phrase and gives interpretative advice. (Needs a reference and summary of argument.) Prue (talk)
Relevant Scriptures
- The phrase "very good" appears in the OT in the following passages:
- KJV Genesis 1:31-2:1 - 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
- KJV Genesis 24:16 - 16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up. (KJV was very fair)
- KJV Numbers 14:7 - 7 And they spake unto all the company of the children of Israel, saying, The land, which we passed through to search it, is an exceeding good land. (KJV it, is an exceeding good)
- KJV Judges 18:9 - 9 And they said, Arise, that we may go up against them: for we have seen the land, and, behold, it is very good: and are ye still? be not slothful to go, and to enter to possess the land. (KJV and, behold, it is very good)
- KJV 1 Samuel 19:4 - 4 And Jonathan spake good of David unto Saul his father, and said unto him, Let not the king sin against his servant, against David; because he hath not sinned against thee, and because his works have been to thee-ward very good: (KJV good; have been to thee-ward very good)
- KJV 1 Samuel 25:15 - 15 But the men were very good unto us, and we were not hurt, neither missed we any thing, as long as we were conversant with them, when we were in the fields: (KJV were very good)
- KJV 1 Samuel 25:36 - 36 And Abigail came to Nabal; and, behold, he held a feast in his house, like the feast of a king; and Nabal's heart was merry within him, for he was very drunken: wherefore she told him nothing, less or more, until the morning light. (KJV was merry within him, for he was very)
- KJV 2 Samuel 11:2 - 2 And it came to pass in an eveningtide, that David arose from off his bed, and walked upon the roof of the king's house: and from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman was very beautiful to look upon. (KJV was very beautiful)
- KJV 1 Kings 1:6 - 6 And his father had not displeased him at any time in saying, Why hast thou done so? and he also was a very goodly man; and his mother bare him after Absalom. (KJV and he also was a very goodly)
- KJV Jeremiah 24:2 - 2 One basket had very good figs, even like the figs that are first ripe: and the other basket had very naughty figs, which could not be eaten, they were so bad. (KJV had very good)
- KJV Jeremiah 24:3 - 3 Then said the LORD unto me, What seest thou, Jeremiah? And I said, Figs; the good figs, very good; and the evil, very evil, that cannot be eaten, they are so evil. (KJV the good figs, very good)
- These do not appear to give any precise definition that can be used to determine their meaning in Genesis 1:31 other than it is an expression of God’s judgement.
- Bruce (talk) — Add a New Testament verse: 1 Timothy 4:4
Free Discussion
- Paul (talk) — Sargent's comment is very good: "In fact, “very good” was God’s judgment of the creation as a whole, viewed as an ordered system. In this Adam was included, but to apply the term specifically to Adam in a particular state is not scripturally justified.— Bro L G Sargent, "The Nature of Resurrection", The Christadelphian, Vol 102 p 27, 1965"
- There is no definition of the phrase "very good" (see the section "Relevant Scriptures" for every occurrence of the phrase). It is an expression of God’s judgement. What the meaning of "very good" is may be implied or assumed but it is not stated in Scripture. To define what God has not defined is not wise or appropriate. There does not appear to be any justification for the assumption that "very good" means that humans (as part of God’s creation) and for the whole of the creation (based on Sargent's comment) were neither immortal nor dying.
- Bruce (talk) The problem with "very good" is here, where due weight is rarely given to the scare quotes.
- Relevant comments by various anonymous Sutherland members in response to AACE stimulus questions (added by Bruce (talk) 21:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC))
- specifically mentioned in response to Q2. What does the Bible say about the nature of man when created?. (Many other responses in this section are relevant, for example (2.2.2.) 'Dust thou art.' Nothing else needs to be said.)
- (2.1.2.) He was created after God's image and likeness, and along with the rest of creation was very good, in kind and condition.
- (2.1.3.) Very good like the whole of the rest of creation
- (2.1.4.) Along with the rest of creation man was very good, in kind and condition. **
- (2.2.1.) Nothing. We assume that 'very good' means something other than very good.
- (2.3.3.) "God was pleased with all he had made, and it was very good" simply means what it says – that God was pleased with what he had made. I do not agree with the interpretation that "very good" refers to the nature of man in any specific way.
- commented on in response to Q3. What does the Bible say about the entry of sin and death into the world so far as man is concerned?:
- (3.4.4.) Gen 2-3 clearly teaches that even in his “very good” state and perfect paradise environment temptation is irresistible. Such is human nature.
